The "what the hell is Odyssey / Gspprt cooking up" thread.

[tecnic1]

I don't doubt that it has a mechanical advantage over 6mm. I prefer bigger sizes when working on things, but nobody offers replacement tools for it. Park Tools does not make a 7mm allen key in any of their tools/sets.

Now move over to 1/4 or 5/16 and I would understand that.

People would kill me, but if it were up to me, I'd use torx for everything.

[JohnW]

Torx is the worst invention. Causes so many problems on cars.

[Finn the Human]

I heard they started cooking meth to subsidize their warranty. George hooked them up with his classic blue recipe and they've been ballin' since.

[Thomas031]

3 dumbass

Why dumbass?

4 pawl hubs are the only ones that never skipped on me.

I know G has reasons for 3 pawls but imho it would work great in a perfect world.

It would work flawlessly if the 3 teeth would be perfectly spaced out inbetween with a perfectly matched ratchet ring.
In my experience, 3 pawl hubs generally have 2 pawls engaging at once, then one is the tiniest bit later.
Which results in lots of confidence-dropping skips/clunks coming from the driver.

I hate that shit, and frankly if my next hub does that as well, i might just give up buying parts anymore.

[Finn the Human]

3 dumbass

Why dumbass?

4 pawl hubs are the only ones that never skipped on me.

I know G has reasons for 3 pawls but imho it would work great in a perfect world.

It would work flawlessly if the 3 teeth would be perfectly spaced out inbetween with a perfectly matched ratchet ring.
In my experience, 3 pawl hubs generally have 2 pawls engaging at once, then one is the tiniest bit later.
Which results in lots of confidence-dropping skips/clunks coming from the driver.

I hate that shit, and frankly if my next hub does that as well, i might just give up buying parts anymore.

lol, technical understanding 0. can you even count on one hand?

[tecnic1]

Torx is the worst invention. Causes so many problems on cars.

I've never rounded one.  I vaguely recall learning at some point that they resist rounding better than hexs.

[Thomas031]

3 dumbass

Why dumbass?

4 pawl hubs are the only ones that never skipped on me.

I know G has reasons for 3 pawls but imho it would work great in a perfect world.

It would work flawlessly if the 3 teeth would be perfectly spaced out inbetween with a perfectly matched ratchet ring.
In my experience, 3 pawl hubs generally have 2 pawls engaging at once, then one is the tiniest bit later.
Which results in lots of confidence-dropping skips/clunks coming from the driver.

I hate that shit, and frankly if my next hub does that as well, i might just give up buying parts anymore.

lol, technical understanding 0. can you even count on one hand?

Can you guys do anything other than writing condescending remarks?

If you fail to understand what i wrote up, that's one thing. Might be a language barrier.

But please, enlighten me with your obviously better informed brain.

I feel that 2 points are easier to line up than 3 points. If you have any arguments otherwise i'd like to know.

G's motivation was (iirc) that 3 pawls distribute the forces more equal so the inner driver bearings don't take that much of a beating.
And 3 pawls taking the load is better than 2 pawls taking the load.
Can't really argue that.

But when it comes down to performance, in my experience, when you turn a driver ever so slightly, 3 pawled drivers really seem to have timing problems. Hearing 2 clicks instead of 1 click means 2 pawls engaged before the other or vice versa. Without any other suspect, i can only conclude the skipping must have been the consequence of that.

I know this is essentially a pointless discussion. But nevertheless i'd like to hear more arguments than just me being a dumbass or having no technical understanding. I mean, you guys sound like little kids acting like that.

[JohnW]

My 4 pawl driver skipped way more than my 3 pawl ever did.

Torx is the worst invention. Causes so many problems on cars.

I've never rounded one.  I vaguely recall learning at some point that they resist rounding better than hexs.

In theory. Add in rust, over torquing, and parts stretching/compressing and they're way more of a hassle than they're worth. Unless you use an impact gun to remove them, there's a good chance of stripping because they do NOT like to be used with a ratchet or L shaped key. They like perfect rotational force whereas allens seem to be more ok with a lever being used. At least in my experience anyways. I run into a lot of problems with Torx bolts on automotive brakes.

[bsd510]

fwiw i've had the same experience as thomas with my bsd which has 3 pawls. When I turn the driver very slowly, you can feel/hear two clicks, the first one loud and the second one very quietly with just the tiniest bit of movement from the first click. I never had any issues with my primo mix which has 4 pawls

G, is there black magic coating on all colors of the sunday tall t bars, or only the black color called "black magic". I am hoping to strip a pair raw and don't want to deal with the black magic coating

[G]

@bsd510 All the 41thermal parts have the black magic under whatever other paint they might have.

It isn't really fair to say "I had brand X 3 pawl hub and it sucked so all 3 pawl hubs must suck, but I had a good experience with a 4 pawl hub so that must be better.." There are obviously a ton of other factors.

Yes. If you can turn a driver slowly enough you will always be able to get the pawls to "click" back out at minutely different angles, this applies to any number of pawls other than one, including hubs where only 2 pawls engage at once, it is just going to be more noticeable the more pawls you have.

However, there will obviously be variations in how big this gap is, we have special tooling to help get all three pawls into the best possible alignment for both the G-Sport and Antigram hubs, and this does a lot to help make our hubs very reliable for this.

Now consider once the pawls are engaged.

A good parallel is to look at chairs or tables. A chair with just one or two thin legs will always fall over, there is no way for it to be stable. In a driver, this means that as you pedal, the load is alternating between the two pawls and shifting around, this increases wear on all the components including driver bearings etc.
A chair with 3 legs doesn't fall over, and when you stop thinking about chairs and think about drivers it also means that the driver tends to "self centre" between those 3 pawls, spreading the load as evenly as possible and reducing stress and wear.
Going to more than 3 legs/pawls (engaging), is pointless and can be worse. If you have ever sat at a wobbly 4 legged table you will know what I mean, because the legs are now 90 degrees apart rather than 120, the table will always wobble a bit. Tables tend to flex enough to put all 4 legs on the ground, but a driver and pawl are too stiff for this. So a 4 pawl (engaging all at once) will still tend to "wobble" a little back and forth on the two good pawls and between the two "loose" pawls.

I hope this makes sense and helps explain why 3 pawl is superior.


G.

[streetStreet]

I dunno what the fuck you just said little kid, but you special. You reached out, and you touched my heart.

[tecnic1]

My 4 pawl driver skipped way more than my 3 pawl ever did.

Torx is the worst invention. Causes so many problems on cars.

I've never rounded one.  I vaguely recall learning at some point that they resist rounding better than hexs.

In theory. Add in rust, over torquing, and parts stretching/compressing and they're way more of a hassle than they're worth. Unless you use an impact gun to remove them, there's a good chance of stripping because they do NOT like to be used with a ratchet or L shaped key. They like perfect rotational force whereas allens seem to be more ok with a lever being used. At least in my experience anyways. I run into a lot of problems with Torx bolts on automotive brakes.

Brakes aren't fair because in addition to the large (mostly shear) stresses, corrosive environment and presence of brake dust (which tends to penetrate crevices it shouldn't be able to, then bakes/rusts things together), they are also seeing a ton of thermal cycles.  I kinda think that the reason Torx is used so relatively extensively in brakes is because of the cam out resistance.

That's all speculation though, and just because I've had success with them doesn't make them the best, just what I prefer and use when I can.  In my limited (and not very successful) FSAE brake design experience, I speced 12 point bolts for all the brake fasteners, but that was because that's what they used on F1 cars, so they had to be good.

[Louis]

its coz profile uses imperial measurements so their 22mm is actually whichever imperial fraction is closest to 22mm, which is 7/8" or 22.225

basically, profile is retarded

#muurica

Is it not Profile that uses 7mm broached crankbolts? Who in their right mind said "7mm is a good idea"?

They use 9/32" crank bolts because they're so American, that all they know is imperial.

A 7.5mm allen is VERY close, so it works.

[Thomas031]

Thanks for your reply George

Just want to clarify that i was in no way talking about the performance of the Ody/Gsport products, i have yet to buy one.

Also i keep in mind that a isolated bad experience with any manufacturer should not mean a concept must be questioned.
I have actually had a Salt hub that worked beautifully, 3 pawled. Think it might even have been joytech.

I can be a bit of an ass, questioning authority, but it can only help me reach a better understanding.

Thought about it a bit more, i guess skipping could also have something to do with bigger and smaller ratchet rings, as well as with the depth and width of the teeth individually.
Or spring tension and teeth wear. Last two i happen to know weren't the root causes of skipping in my previous hub though.

And there will likely be other factors, as well.

Can't blame me for trying to make sense out of it though.

On a bright note, if i'm ever getting my bike ridable again, my rims are going to be laced to an Antigram, or a Simian, haven't heard a single bad thing about the first.

I know you guys know your shit, more than any other company out there atm.

fwiw i've had the same experience as thomas with my bsd which has 3 pawls. When I turn the driver very slowly, you can feel/hear two clicks, the first one loud and the second one very quietly with just the tiniest bit of movement from the first click. I never had any issues with my primo mix which has 4 pawls

Just so happens that i have a friend with a BSD hub that i noticed skipped just like mine did.
Looked up the internals, same internals.
The BSD hubs essentially identical to the Kink Incite.

wide pawls shallow teeth, small hub profile (thus small ratchet ring OD) might be the problem, idk. They just don't seem to be doing very well.

After what G said, i just don't feel good blaming that little extra click with making those 3 pawl hubs skip and pop.
It makes some 3 pawl hubs skip and pop but others seem to perform great.

Still curious why that might be.

[LukeTom]

A chair with 3 legs doesn't fall over, and when you stop thinking about chairs and think about drivers it also means that the driver tends to "self centre" between those 3 pawls, spreading the load as evenly as possible and reducing stress and wear.

Girlfriend asked what I was reading. Tried explaining this concept to her. She thought about it long and hard, and asked 'what if all the legs were in the middle, and I sat on the edge? the chair would fall over'

What do you say to that G.