Cruiser guys, ATF 24" vs Wave C vs Liquid, input please.

[Fundamental]

I currently ride a 2010 Fit CR 24" that I picked up from CMB.  The frame is a 21.25", with 13.5" BB, and 14.75" CS.
I like the ride, but something feels 'off'.  My current 20" is a 21", with 11.5" BB, and 13.25" CS.  I love the way the 20" rides.  Very 'poppy' with room up front, and a low, 'in the bike' feel.

Of the three, Liquid, ATF, or Wave C, which would ride closer to the type of 20" I ride?
The Liquid is on one end of the spectrum with a lowish BB but the shortest CS, and the Wave C on the other end with the highest BB and medium CS.  I almost feel like the S&M would be very similar to what I currently ride.

Thoughts, experiences, and input is appreciated.

Mahalo.

[master]

I liked my Model C 24", but the high BB gave more of an "on the bike" feel than in "in the bike" feel. Good for a poppy, light feeling but maybe not quite what you're looking for. A lower BB than the Sunday will definitely be more comparable to the 11.5" on your 20".

[@ss4oLe]

I have a Liquid. I didn't really ride park/street with it (i could, just prefer to ride trials) but that thing ROASTS some dirt jumps.

I like the "in the bike" feel as well. But honestly, I can ride any frame(within reason) just as well/bad as any other frame.

That probably doesn't help you at all.

[CARROTFVCKER]

i have a model c and my 20 is a Steadfast, fairly lowish bb and they both feel awesome

[Fundamental]

I like to mix it up between 20" and 24", so making an easy switch between the two would be ideal.
No trails around, so 'roasting' is not so important.  I know the Liquid was designed to be more 'trails', but the short back end, low BB and long front sound like what I ride normally, just in a 24".
The CR 24 is cool, but a bit short at 21.25" for a cruiser.  Also with the higher BB, I have to run a pretty tall bar/stem set up to get some pop.

I was able to take a quick spin on a 24" Dirt Bike and it felt better with the longer top tube, but it did not really feel much different in the BB/CS from what I already have.

[cmc4130]

I currently ride a 2010 Fit CR 24" that I picked up from CMB.  The frame is a 21.25", with 13.5" BB, and 14.75" CS.
I like the ride, but something feels 'off'.  My current 20" is a 21", with 11.5" BB, and 13.25" CS.  I love the way the 20" rides.  Very 'poppy' with room up front, and a low, 'in the bike' feel.

Of the three, Liquid, ATF, or Wave C, which would ride closer to the type of 20" I ride?
The Liquid is on one end of the spectrum with a lowish BB but the shortest CS, and the Wave C on the other end with the highest BB and medium CS.  I almost feel like the S&M would be very similar to what I currently ride.

Thoughts, experiences, and input is appreciated.

Mahalo.

I haven't ridden an ATF 24".  But, between the Liquid or the Wave C, I would say you might like the Liquid better (since you say you like a slightly lower bb, and you like an "in the bike" feeling).  Although it's nominally a trails frame, I think it's an excellent street frame (at least for my mid-school style of street).  Although I have liked 74.5 and 75 head angles on various frames, I think the 74 really works well on the Liquid.  It reminds me of back in the mid school years when people rode trails frames on street (like the Holmes, etc.)--but it's better than a Holmes, because of the short back end.  The stability and non-twitchiness of the front end makes you feel like you want to crank and stuff faster and go bigger.   

If you want some background on the Liquid (which was developed simultaneously but completely separately from Sunday's Model C) back in 2008, check this out:  http://www.ridemonkey.com/threads/a-little-late-but-the-liquid-feedback-v2-is-here.265639/ (and the link in there that links back to the 2008 thread).    Also check this thread--it was the first group of guys riding Liquids:  http://www.ridemonkey.com/threads/my-liquid-bike.227386/

[Bunky]

I've been riding ModelC/WaveC bikes for several years now, but haven't ridden a Limit, so I can't comment on the difference between the two.

I can say that you can get the Sunday 24 bikes to feel different based on how you set them up.  If you go with tall bars, you get a more "in the bike" feel, vs. if you go with shorter bars/stem, you get a more "on top" of feel.

I feel like my WaveC is pretty poppy and still has loads of room up front.  When I had 8.25 tall bars with a tall topload stem, I didn't seem too tall, but gave me the "in the bike" feel for sure.  I recently changed to an angled topload stem that dropped the bars about 1/4th an inch, and am about to switch the bars out to go a little lower so I can get a little more on top of the bike for bunnyhops and grinds.

What kind of riding will you mostly be doing on the bike?

Here's a blurry ass picture I found riding on my Model-C with an angled topload stem and 7.75 tall bars.  I think that's the best that bike ever rode and was really good for riding street and street like ramps/ledges.

[cmc4130]

. . .
I can say that you can get the Sunday 24 bikes to feel different based on how you set them up.  If you go with tall bars, you get a more "in the bike" feel, vs. if you go with shorter bars/stem, you get a more "on top" of feel.
. . .

Yeah, that makes sense. I have seen people riding 7.25" bars all the way up to 10"s on the Sunday Model C and Wave C.   

Even when you correct for stance height by raising the grips . . . there are still differences in handling associated with a bb that is below axle level, at axle level, a little above axles, and a lot above axles.  But chainstay length is the other factor that works in conjunction with bb height.  A long cs and low bb is the most difficult to pull up (obviously).  A high bb and short cs is the loopiest.  But a neutral bb height and short cs balances out stability and pop in the same way that having a higher bb and longer cs balances out (like bmx race/trails frames).

For example, look trials bikes with super-high bb's and then look at some of the ridiculously high bunnyhops they do.  The bike seems awful for dirt jumps or airing a quarter pipe, though.


Somebody like Danny Macaskill, though, has a blend of trials style and bmx street style.  His bb is only slightly above axle level, but the back end is short.


People who think that you have to have a high bb for a bike to be "freestyle" are just ignoring mtb-dj/street/park scene, where DJ 26" frames have a little bb drop, but ultra short cs.
Martin Soderstrom:


I feel like Sunday tried something new with the +1.75"bb design, and they deserve a ton of credit for that.  I do think, though, that they came to the public with a simple/simplistic marketing message (which I understand is necessary), which was basically, "our geo is freestyle, all old geo was for racing; everyone copied us."  And that just wasn't and isn't true.  (A lot of people did copy them--e.g. We The People, FIT, Stolen . . . but they weren't the only ones riding freestyle on 24"s--or 26"s.... and more recently We The People copied the Liquid geo exactly, with the WTP Atlas 24").

  "When we introduced the Model-C’s Plus-4 geometry back in 2008, it was the most definitive change in 24″ BMX geometry since the early days of 24″ BMX. From this point on, Plus-4 geometry has influenced every 24″ that has followed it. No longer are 24″ BMX riders limited to sluggish race geometry. The new geometry is quick and responsive while still being stable and comfortable."
http://www.sundaybikes.com/gear/frames/wave-c/#/0

Sunday definitely has put more effort than any bmx company in promoting 24" as a legit option to the street/park/trails bmx world.

Greg Melms custom frame from 2007-ish.  I rode one at Ray's in Cleveland in 08 or 09 and it was amazingly quick to pull up.  Bottom bracket only a little above axles.  Chainstay insanely short with 24" wheels....

http://www.ridemonkey.com/threads/speaking-of-street-cruisers.196889/page-3

[Fundamental]

I understand what you're saying (CMC & Bunky).
When I got the CR24, it had a front load with 8.25" bars.  The bike felt centered, maybe even over the front a bit.
I switched to a top load with the same bars and the bike got more 'balanced' with weight being evenly distributed between grips and pedals.  However, it never really felt lively until I put 8.375" bars and a 5mm spacer.  The last set up seems tall at first, but I can almost move it around like my 20".

I live on a hill with banks, curb cuts, and natural 'jumps' along the way, so most of my riding is bombing down hill at speed and hit whatever comes up…

That Melms bike seems like it'd be really fun to ride.

[Bunky]

I'm thinking you should probably go with the ATF as that's the kind of in between bike of the Model-C and the Liquid. 

If you end up not liking it, at least then you'll probably be able to figure out if you want to go with a higher or lower bb. 

[skateparkrider]

Not to discredit CMC's science and mathematics....  But just like Bunky said, there is a lot of things you can do to a frame to change the way it feels.  Yes, trying to find suitable frame geometry to fit your likings is one of the first steps.  But by no means is it the final step. 

I currently have a Model C and a Wave C built up.  The two are completely different.  My Model C is something I more enjoy riding on dirt/jumping where as the Wave C was something I built up for doing more jibbing and grinding in mind.  These two bikes have the exact same bottom bracket height, which is something that seems to be getting too much attention in the comments in this thread.  The two bikes feel WORLDS apart, simply on how I have them set up. 

Wave C is a slammed rear end, as many stack washers that can fit on an uncut steer tube under a Sunday Freeze top load stem with the 7.75" rise Sunday bars, Odyssey tires and Hazard Lite rims.  The Model C has the axle hanging out of the back of the drop outs, a shorter stack height (maybe 3-5mm) and the 7.25" Sunday bars, Intense MKIII folding tires and Quadrant rims.  The main difference in geometry between the Model C and the Wave C is pretty much just in rear end length, all other angles are the virtually the same.  (Now that I think of it, I think the Model C is an 13.75" bb and the Wave C is a 13.8" but I am not 100% on that at the moment)

It is really crazy how different the two bikes feel from one another.  The wheels alone change how everything rides.  I would even go as far as saying the exact same set up with the different wheels would drastically change how the bike feels just from the rotational weight.  For a while I only had one 24" built up which happened to be the Wave C frame.  At the time, I was a lot more into riding dirt jumps and cement parks, so I had the bike set up similar to my Model C as far as the bar height and rear end length.  It felt exactly what I was after ride feel wise, essentially just like my original Model C's set up. 

I think it is also worth noting that I am the same hight as Cullen (CMC4130) and have ridden his Liquid.  Once again, not to discredit anything he is bringing to the conversation..... but I really didn't enjoy the way his Liquid was set up.  The front end felt too tall and the ass end felt saggy.  PLEASE realize that this is my personal riding preference and I completely respect and understand other people like other/different set ups.   

Moral of my story...... I really enjoy a low bb on my 20" bikes.  11.5" feels great on all types of terrain.  But whenever I ride a 24" that has a lower BB than my Model C/Wave C it simply doesn't really do it for me. 

I hope somewhere in this mess of my ongoing disagreements with Cullen's bike set ups (LOL) that you an find some sort of help in what you are after.   

[Bunky]

F-you guys and this thread...  I thought I was over buying new bikes, but now I just really want to try a Liquid and a 24 ATF just to see how they feel. 

Or if anyone has either a Liquid or an ATF/Dirtbike 24 and wants to try out a Wave-C, we could totally trade for a week or couple and see how it goes.

Any takers?

[cmc4130]

. . . .

I hope somewhere in this mess of my ongoing disagreements with Cullen's bike set ups (LOL) that you an find some sort of help in what you are after.

Heh, I'm okay with that, Bobby!    You'd probably be happy I took the 9"s off and went back to 8.25" T1 Paul B bars (which I think are what I had on there when you rode the Liquid).  If I rode a Model C / Wave C, I'd probably put 9"s on it, then I'd be happy.       The owner of Liquid rides 6"s on his; that's what the Liquid bars were:
Liquid Bikes - 24" Feedback Frame
http://www.bikeguide.org/forum/index.php?topic=195186.0

[Bunky]

Here's a cheap way to try out the Sunday geo.  Even if you ended up not liking it, you could probably sell it to someone on here for about what you'd pay for it. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunday-Model-C-AM-BMX-Bike-24-034-Cruiser-Odyssey-Parts-2013-Cult-Fit-Bikes-/131367487239?&_trksid=p2056016.m2516.l5255

[CARROTFVCKER]

i am with booby on this one