The Street > The Lounge
Paris
JFax:
It seems like the only way to maintain a sort of normal society in the area is through strong dictatorships. Egypt is still struggling tobget democracy up and working without creating terrorist factions, but if they succeed it would be a beacon of hope
manwe:
To be honest no self contained revolution (the American Revolution doesn't count cos they were kicking the colonisers out), that I can think of anyway, has ever led to a democratic government.
Democracy is fycking hard, not even most of the west has a handle on it and countries like the us have been at it for 200+ years. So I have to somewhat agree with alaskun, despite his shady sources, that a lot of the deliberate western destabilization of the region seems either ridiculously optimistic, stupid, or, let's be real, malicious as fuck. It's pretty crazy to even suggest that creating a democratic regime out of nothing would have been a realistic or genuine goal for the invasions.
But now I think we just have to deal with the mess they created. Wait until Isis implodes, wait until things start to get better or worse on their own, and generally not fucking meddle anymore. As it is this is more destructive than old school colonization.
JFax:
At first glance it would be logical to re-split the geopolitical division of countries that was made after WW1, the Sykes-Picot agreement.
A Kurdish national state would most probably be a really stable country. Its semi-autonomous in Iraq I think and if Assad falls it could probably be a possibility here too. I bet Turkey wouldnt be too thrilled about it though.
Then it would be an issue about what to do with Shiites and Sunni, if these could be divided into different states. Not sure if it would be a super idea, but it seems like the tension between the groups is what makes new democracies like Iraq fail. Could perhaps be an option, I mean, Pakistan India happened! They arent really the closest of friends though, and I forsee a bit Sunni/shia war in the decades to come.
alaskun:
Agence France-Presse @AFP 53 minutes ago
#BREAKING Lavrov says pre-conditions on Assad departure 'unacceptable' for joining forces against IS
after all the g20 pleasantries we're still trying to make the whole thing about taking out assad...
alaskun:
--- Quote from: alaskun on November 16, 2015, 02:36:32 AM ---George Takei Fears NSA Spying Will Lead to Something Much Worse
+
Justice Antonin Scalia says World War II-style internment camps could happen again
--- End quote ---
another credible person saying what happened in ww2 could happen again...
"how do we fix self-radicalized lone woofs, domestically?"
video- General Wesley Clark Promotes Internment Of 'Radicalized' US Citizens
--- Quote ---july 18 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaPwqokBn9M
Roberts asked him what we needed to do about "self-radicalization" which seems to be the short-hand for a Muslim (as opposed to a white supremacist or a conspiracy theorist or just some nut) who reads some crazy stuff on the internet and decides to go out in a blaze of glory:
Clark: We have got to identify the people who are most likely to be radicalized. We've got to cut this off at the beginning. There are always a certain number of young people who are alienated. They don't get a job, they lost a girlfriend, their family doesn't feel happy here and we can watch the signs of that. And there are members of the community who can reach out to those people and bring them back in and encourage them to look at their blessings here.
But I do think on a national policy level we need to look at what self-radicalization means because we are at war with this group of terrorists. They do have an ideology. In World War II if someone supported Nazi Germany at the expense of the United States, we didn't say that was freedom of speech, we put him in a camp, they were prisoners of war.
So, if these people are radicalized and they don't support the United States and they are disloyal to the United States, as a matter of principle fine. It's their right and it's our right and obligation to segregate them from the normal community for the duration of the conflict. And I think we're going to have to increasingly get tough on this, not only in the United States but our allied nations like Britain, Germany and France are going to have to look at their domestic law procedures.
--- End quote ---
ron paul on it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX3vtBrx5F8
--- Quote ---Last week, Retired General Wesley Clark, who was NATO commander during the US bombing of Serbia, proposed that “disloyal Americans” be sent to internment camps for the “duration of the conflict.” Discussing the recent military base shootings in Chattanooga, TN, in which five US service members were killed, Clark recalled the internment of American citizens during World War II who were merely suspected of having Nazi sympathies. He said: “back then we didn’t say ‘that was freedom of speech,’ we put him in a camp.”
He called for the government to identify people most likely to be radicalized so we can “cut this off at the beginning.” That sounds like “pre-crime”!
--- End quote ---
some of you will remember him from this 2007 clip where he admits america had planned to (deceptively) take out 7 counties after 9/11...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw
Real Reason for Syria War Plans, from Gen. Wesley Clark
--- Quote ---September, 2012
In this stunning but little-known speech from 2007, Gen. Wesley Clark claims America underwent a “policy coup” at the time of the 9/11 attacks. In this video, he reveals that, right after 9/11, he was privy to information contained in a classified memo: US plans to attack and remove governments in seven countries over five years: Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran.
He was told: “We learned that we can use our military without being challenged …. We’ve got about five years to clean up the Soviet client regimes before another superpower comes along and challenges us.”
“This was a policy coup…these people took control of policy in the United States….”
--- End quote ---
he said this earlier this year...
General Wesley Clark: "ISIS Got Started Through Funding From Our Friends & Allies"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHLqaSZPe98
--- Quote ---feb 2 2015
Adding that "they recruited the zealots and religious fundamentalists," Clark says 'we' create "Frankenstein."
--- End quote ---
and it's exactly what people like me have been pointing out/paying attention to for years, and what Putin brought up at the g20 two days ago...
Putin: ISIS financed from 40 countries, including G20 members
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96k_8ywt22g
--- Quote ---16 Nov, 2015
President Vladimir Putin says he’s shared Russian intelligence data on Islamic State financing with his G20 colleagues: the terrorists appear to be financed from 40 countries, including some G20 member states.
During the summit, “I provided examples based on our data on the financing of different Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL) units by private individuals. This money, as we have established, comes from 40 countries and, there are some of the G20 members among them,” Putin told the journalists.
Putin also spoke of the urgent need to curb the illegal oil trade by IS.
"I’ve shown our colleagues photos taken from space and from aircraft which clearly demonstrate the scale of the illegal trade in oil and petroleum products," he said.
“The motorcade of refueling vehicles stretched for dozens of kilometers, so that from a height of 4,000 to 5,000 meters they stretch beyond the horizon," Putin added, comparing the convoy to gas and oil pipeline systems.
It’s not the right time to try and figure out which country is more and which is less effective in the battle with Islamic State, as now a united international effort is needed against the terrorist group, Putin said.
Putin reiterated Russia’s readiness to support armed opposition in Syria in its efforts to fight Islamic State.
"Some armed opposition groups consider it possible to begin active operations against IS with Russia's support. And we are ready to provide such support from the air. If it happens it could become a good basis for the subsequent work on a political settlement,” he said.
“We really need support from the US, European nations, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran,” the president added.
Putin pointed out the change in Washington’s stance on cooperation with Moscow in the fight against the terrorists.
"We need to organize work specifically concentrated on the prevention of terrorist attacks and tackling terrorism on a global scale. We offered to cooperate [with the US] in anti-IS efforts. Unfortunately, our American partners refused. They just sent a written note and it says: ‘we reject your offer’,” Putin said.
“But life is always evolving and at a very fast pace, often teaching us lessons. And I think that now the realization that an effective fight [against terror] can only be staged together is coming to everybody,” the Russian leader said.
--- End quote ---
yet we're still acting like putin is a crazy aggressive murderer because "he's not helping remove/kill the president who isis wants dead?"
What's the difference between a refugee center and a detention facility? What about the fact that US media for the past few years has been stating repeatedly that radicalized white conspiracy theorists are a bigger threat than ISIS or other terror groups.
What happens if americans start physically acting out against refugees? Somebody is going to have to be cordoned off for somebody else's safety, and it's really creepy how the media/splc/feds have been turning harder against people who talk about other people doing bad things, than they do against the people who actually do the bad things...
look at the people in germany getting raided/arrested right now for just saying mean things about migrants. look at the tension between races in paris. none of this is happening by surprise, it's being forced on us, and I believe it's going to get ugly.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version